deer released into taranaki forests risking TB

@bernieq - don't need to bring it back. WARO (wild animal recovery operations) for the food market are well & truely ongoing. They dip & rise with the venison price but on average have a sustained huge impact on deer numbers. To the extent that they come into conflict with recreational use. Which is where I so strongly disagree with you. I'm not a meat hunter myself except for the odd bit of meat when I'm living bush. Like you I cannot share the trophy hunting ethos. But I cannot be so arrogant as to impose my lifestyle preferences on others. Others who have just as much moral right to pursue their passtimes as I do. Others who value the self same things as I do, though they reach that point from a different start point.

madpom - very well said. bernieq - I have known many deer hunters over the last five decades and I have never met one who enjoyed killing. See what poison in the form of 1080 does to a deer and you'll know what cruel is. waynowski - I didn't make any rash generalisations about anyone on this forum. The wild deer population in NZ is estimated to be roughly 250,000. If left unmolested, the deer population doubles every three years. Now, if your claim that the recreational hunters don't make a dent in the deer population was true then that population would soon be increasing to the point where we would have the deer problem you think we have. WARO does have an impact on deer numbers of course. However, they're not going to get the deer who prefer to remain in thick native bush. I'm not a trophy hunter myself, although I have the odd old rack or two hanging up in the garage. I'll soon be doing a walk down the Waiau River, Te Urewera. I won't be taking a rifle as I don't need any venison as my large freezer is full of it. Also, this time of the year the hinds are tending to their fawns. It's not ethical to kill the mother and let the fawn die of starvation. Deer will always be here in this beautiful land long after our grandchildren have aged and passed away.

I'm not imposing anything on anyone - I'm expressing my opinion which is informed by my ethics. Society imposes it's values and constraints on it's members (eg obvious limits on theft, assault and the like; less well defined ideals like social service and co-operation). You, me, and everyone, are part of our society - we have a role in forming the rules, maintaining and modifying them. It's both a right and a responsibility, imo. So, yes, I am seeking to effect social change so that a particular behaviour is generally considered unacceptable. By expressing my opinion, I'm seeking to add to that part of Society that thinks similarly. Eventually, the aim is for Society to change and that behaviour is constrained. That behaviour, in this discussion, is recreational hunting. It could also be excessive consumption of alcohol (in DoC huts). In previous times, for example, slavery.

Maybe we need some definitions : I've been using these: Recreational Hunter : hunts primarily for recreation. Recreation : activity done for pleasure, enjoyment. Trophy Hunting : hunting to secure some item to be used as trophy. Hunting (animal) : stalking, tracking, trapping, a target species usually with the intent of killing. So, Sako1952, none of the hunters you've encountered kill for pleasure - that's great. Maybe recreational hunting isn't an issue. I have encountered a few (in Aus) and, once, a very threatening encounter. Certainly NZ and Aus have a very different culture in this area - maybe recreational hunting is more an Aus issue? I'd just like to say that it's great to see this highly emotive subject being handled by everyone sensitively and without personal attack.

@bernieq. It depends on how broadly you define 'kill'. I love my time trapping possums. I love being in the bush. I love reading the bush and learning to think like a possum. I get pleasure from reading sign, reading my dog. I love the chalkenge of long hard days to hit my 50/day target. I love the physical challenge of lugging 300 traps into the backcountry, shifting them around steep hard country. I take pleasure from walking out with bulging binbags of fur, watching them be weighed & assessed. The mandatory beer with the buyer. I take no pleasure from smacking a possum over the head with a 2lb hammer ... would be happy to skip that bit. Do I take pleasure from killing? Or do I take pleasure from the hunt? Is it the kill or the hunt that hunters enjoy? Morally, I think there is a big differennce.

Just to chime in (because really why not?)... To me Conservation in NZ should be about designing our future rather than specifically preserving what we have. I like to hope that preserving, embracing and encouraging biodiversity which we still have, with a sustainable equilibrium, should be a priority in this design, and especially prioritising what's not found elsewhere. Exactly what that means, or should mean, for something like deer is up for discussion. There's no point trying to go backwards for the sake of it, though. That horse has already bolted.

That is true but also it is a combination of that and saving what we have. We have many species that we have introduced and they have all had an impact some more than others and some are more desirable than others. Sheep and cattle have required large tracts of land to be cleared which has resulted in habitat loss and increased pollution but at the same time they bring a lot of wealth to the country. Deer munch there way through huge amounts of bush but tourists pay big money to hunt them. Trout and salmon have displaced most native fish but we have some of the best trout fishing in the would. Even the humble sparrow will have reduced native bird numbers. These animals are too valuable to us to just say they shouldnt be here lets "cleanse" them but we have to maintain a balance. Pests though that do not currently have value and destroy the environment ie mice rats possoms wasps etc we should do what we can to make them disappear. Some of those things might be distasteful to some but must be done

I think it's really important as has been previously stated by Madpom that all the recreational groups work together and resist any trend to encourage divisive attitudes. I suspect that some government departments profit when our collective recreational voice is attenuated by division.

Most hunters see it as unsportsmanlike to kill everything they can. They will take what they need and leave the rest for someone else. This would apply to trophys as well as meat hunters. Ive done the same thing trout fishing. Grab enough for a feed then stop fishing. Ive even released fish that were over legal size but not enough for a meal. Recreational hunting isnt about animal control. Only way that can change is if it was legal to sell recreational hunted meat but there are so many thorns in that idea it will never be considered. Food safety would be the biggest concern followed far to closely by the problem of many times the number of new hunters that cant tell the difference between an antler and a t shirt

We seem to be in fruious agreement, pretty much. Recreational hunting isn't about animal control - agree. I'm not ranting at people to change their ways - agree. ... preserving ... biodiversity ... should be a priority - agree.  We have many species that we have introduced ... and some are more desirable than others - agree. Madpom : "I take no pleasure from smacking a possum over the head with a 2lb hammer" - but I've met some who do; and they kill for pleasure.