Kathmandu Gortex Jackets

If you're referring to the tests in that 2003 article, then yeah. He wasn't exactly being neutral. Still, I don't think it's unreasonable to see people expecting more from a raincoat when it costs $500-$600, like many at a place like Kathmandu. For a person who's not bought much outdoor gear and has only ever owned $50 raincoats with which they always get wet (one way or another), it's a logical extension that paying 10 times the amount for a raincoat that's supposed to be highly technical based on space-age research and "guaranteed to keep you dry" might actually do a better job than the $50 variety. And maybe they do, just not in ways that are obvious to many people. Irrespective of the small print, when people buy their first $500 raincoat based on that kind of marketing, and they're still feeling wet, I don't think it's unjustified for them to feel ripped off afterwards. If you've had some experience with outdoor gear to realise what expectations should be and what's important, and how and where to research the options properly, it's a different story. But the noisiest marketing doesn't target people who know what they're getting. It targets people who think of raincoats in terms of what they wear around town, and what they expect raincoats to do (ie. keep them dry), and what their current relatively cheap raincoat doesn't do as well as they want it to. I guess that's why I think the marketing on these things is misleading.

I agree with your above post izogi and found the links in your earlier post useful. The Gore-Tex leggings I bought years ago were sold on the claim of light weight, low bulk, breathability and weather proofness yet failed on the last two counts. Having paid 3 or 4 times the price of normal leggings I felt ripped off. It's not that I was short of experience with wet weather gear having spent 15 years plus working full time in the bush and mountains at that stage. I was sucked in by the marketing. Perhaps reading your earlier post I should have tried washing the leggings to get rid of sweat, dirt, oil etc and that may have improved their performance?

I've had a go at restoring my DWR on 2 raincoats. Miserable failure: I washed them in detergent to get rid of the oil etc., washed them in plain water, washed them in sports wash, washed them again in plain water, tried the wash-in DWR restorer, tested them - absorbed water instead of beading and finally tried the spray on DWR restorer and kept swapping the jackets to catch the DWR running off as I sprayed the jackets. They still aren't beading...about $20 poorer and not happy. Oh, yes and both times I had the jackets in the drier for the half hour they recommend. All this was done after plenty of research on the net on how to do this properly. I'll just wear the dri-ducks (froggtoggs) underneath the jacket in serious rain.

@honora, I went through the same experience myself a few times before I eventually found a thread on the UK site Outdoors Magic that had a contribution from a guy who is the actual chemist for Nikwax. To cut a long story short, the mortal enemies of DWR are skin oil and dirt. On the advice of what I read there, here's what I do now: 1. A hot wash in using a household laundry detergent. We normally use EcoStore brand. This gets rid of the deeply embedded dirt and oils. 2. A thorough rinse and spin cycle to get remove most of the laundry detergent. 3. Another wash in the Nikwax Sports wash to get rid of the remnant laundry detergent. I do this by hand in a bucket in the bathtub using hand-warm water. It’s important not to use the washing machine again because usually there is too much residual detergent lurking about in it’s nooks and crannies. 4 A couple of cold water rinses. 5. Then the DWR wash-in step, again by hand in the bucket. Let it drip dry, or if your in a hurry it’s ok to use the spin cycle of the washing machine as long as you can do it without adding water. 6. Finally…and most critically… tumble dry the garment for 20-30min on a hot setting. This is essential to get the DWR molecules to properly ‘set’ on the fabric. Normally I can get through this in about 90 min or so. Sounds like a fuss, but it seems to restore the DWR to about the same as it was new.

Personally I’ve given up on expecting anything much from any of the so-called breathable membrane coatings in New Zealand conditions. (Well I haven’t tried Event but it’s figures are not so dramatically better than the others that I’m willing to give it much benefit of the doubt.) As aardvark implies above, they ALL depend on the vapour pressure inside the jacket to be higher than outside in order to push water through the resistance of the membrane. This vapour pressure differential can only exist if the relative humidity (RH) inside the jacket higher than outside. But most of the time in our climate, when you really want the jacket to work the most, the temperature is hovering around 0degC and the relative humidity outside the jacket is pretty close to 100%. And because no matter what you do the RH inside the jacket can never exceed 100%, then there is precious little vapour pressure differential to drive the ‘breathability’ effect you are expecting. If you factor in the fact that the DWR on the outside of the jacket may have given up and the outer nylon layer is wetted out, and that skin oils and perspiration are contaminating the inside … then it’s not surprising that in real life experience, the membrane is overwhelmed and you finish up condensing a lot of moisture on the inside of the jacket.

So what is the a answer? Can someone recommend a brand to try that is: a) waterproof, b) reaches down below my shorts so I can sit down and c) lightweight. You can keep breathable. I just want something that I know will keep me dry when it has to, and when sweating is not an issue - e.g. on cold wet windy exposed ridge-lines, when stopped for lunch, when setting up camp, when injured ... You ask for this in the macpac / bivouac / mountain designs style outdoor shops and they seem to think you're mad, can't understand why you don;t want the latest 'better-than-goretex' fabric. Sucked in by their own hype about breathable membranes, I suppose. I'm almost at the stage of believing my mate Pete is right: who has managed 40-odd years hunting the north-island ranges in $2.50 5-pack waterproofs: 'you'll not find anything better than a bin-bag'.

@madpom. I’m hesitant to try telling someone with your track record anything much about tramping, but what the hell I never let that stop me. I’ve experimented with all sorts of solutions and this is currently what I’m using and why. Imagine you’re heading up onto an exposed Tararua ridgeline in winter, the air temp is 0degC and the wind speed is the usual 10-15m/s. Not very pleasant, but the sort of conditions I want to be able to cope with safely: 1. Skin layer. Earth Sea Sky First Layer. Polyester knit with silver impregnation. Nice flexible garment that dries quickly and doesn’t pong up like most synthetics. (200 gms) 2. First windproof layer is a Marmot Original Windshirt. The remarkable thing about this garment is just how wide a range of conditions I can use it in. When I’m moving, especially while climbing up onto the tops, often it’s all I need until things get quite claggy. (250 gms) 3. Insulation layer. Montbell Thermwrap Parka. Has about the same insulation as a 200 rated fleece, but half the weight and isn’t so bulky that you cannot wear it underneath a jacket. This means you can wear it while moving and having a synthetic fill it doesn’t mind getting wet. Crucially it’s also very wind resistant and until it starts raining reasonably steadily these layers are all I’ll need. (250 gms) 4. Once it starts raining/blowing seriously then I pull out the final secret weapon, a Coich Direct Glamaig. Cioch are a small mum and pop operation on the Isle of Skye who use Paramo fabrics and for a very modest extra 10 quid will cut them to your exact size. The jacket itself has no membrane layer and relies on a microfibre ‘pump action’ that utilizes capillary action to force liquid water (not vapour) from the inside of the fabric to the outside. It also has the added warmth of about a 100 rated fleece on it’s own. (600 gms) No polyurethane membrane layers, nothing to impede water vapour moving through the layers. Of course if you have too much insulation on, and your moving hard then of course you’ll get hot and sweat anyhow, but it’s less of a problem because you do tend to dry out reasonably fast. The Glamaig has a fairly light outer shell that is not 100% windproof like a 3-layer Goretex jacket, but because the Thermawrap and Windshirt layers are also very windproof in their own right, the effect is cumulative. You’re no longer relying on just one layer for wind resistance. The Glamaig is not waterproof in the conventional sense. It’s more like the Swandris that hunters used a lot; it will wet out and absorb water (especially once the initial DWR has worn out a bit) but magically enough no water ever seems to get through to the inner surface of the jacket… at least not so that I ever seem to get soaked by it. Damp yes, wet no. And because the Paramo ‘pump effect’ does not rely on the relative humidity differential between inside and outside, it doesn’t seem to matter how cold and wet things are, it works pretty much the same. The other interesting plus is that the Thermwrap jacket has just the right amount of puffiness to fill up the space under the Glamaig jacket, greatly reducing that maddening flap effect that high wind has on loose layers of the parka. Probably this time next year I'll have another bunch of kit tot try, but so far I'm pretty happy with this lot.

PhilipW: I fell off a mountain. That doesn't mean I've nothing left to learn! Yes: I have been working on the 'warm when wet' principle for some time. I suspect the list you give above fits that category perfectly. I imagine that after 10 minutes of pushing through wet vegetation the ability to 'pump water' has ceased, the damp starts to seep in, and fairly soon it all weighs twice what it did when you started? Keeps you warm, that's what matters, I know. And drying out quickly is certainly a bonus - more than I can say for the $700 Goretex Swazi Thar I somehow own, which seems incapable of drying even overnight in front of the hut fire. It's just that, now and then, I long to be dry. Vain, I realise.

A farming mate reckons the Oringi jackets are pretty good, and they have a tramper's raincoat (Milford) that's long enough to keep your butt dry when sitting down. oringi.co.nz Personally I use a PVC coated nylon raincoat. I sweat like anything inside it, but it is 100% waterproof and 1/4 the price of a breathable coat.

@madpom “I imagine that after 10 minutes of pushing through wet vegetation the ability to 'pump water' has ceased, the damp starts to seep in, and fairly soon it all weighs twice what it did when you started?” Sort of, that’s kind of close to what happens. Paramo system garments are actually constructed with two separate layers of fabric. The outer nylon layer provides wind resistance and slows down the impact of big raindrops, stopping them from being forced through the inner layer by impact. When the DWR is new and working well this outer layer sheds water as you would expect and over the course of a full day’s rain it stays fairly dry. I’ve had the Glamaig jacket three years now, and re-proofed it with the Nikwax DWR twice in that time. The first time was only so-so, but the second time I did it right and it seems to have taken quite well. When I let the DWR fail completely the outer layer would wet-out, especially around the sleeves, and yes it gets heavier. Dry the jacket weighs about 650gms, fully wetted out probably double that. On the other hand once it stops raining, and if you keep wearing it while moving, then it will have dried out within several hours because there’s no polyurethane membrane to slow down the drying process. But the second inner ‘pump’ layer seems to keep on doing its thing regardless of how wetted out the outer layer has gotten. You can force water through it by sitting on it, or leaning hard against a wet tree, but I’ve never taken the jacket off after normal use and found obvious wetness on the inside of the inner layer, or that miserable tell-tale cold trickle of water seeping right through to the skin.