Emergency shelters - what works/what's practical?
This thread branched from "Two dead in the Tararuas" on . Explore the branch.
Original post
In the light of several incidents we have been discussing, what do people carry, what would be their ideal emergency shelter? I'm thinking of a scenario similar to that Bennington and Jackson faced, on the tops, unable to continue, windy and snowing / near snowing.
Both for overnight trips where aim is a hut and for daytrips.
Some will say carry a good alpine tent and a sleeping bag even on a daytrip just in case, but in reality most are not going to carry that much when going to a hut or on a daytrip.
Some thoughts:
Two survival bags with your sleeping bag would be cheap, light and bombproof. Stuff sleeping bag in one survival bag, stuff other survival bag in sleeping bag and climb in boots and all if necessary. Down sleeping bag should stay dry even in a damp hollow between the tussocks when its howling and sleeting, Inner survival bag will keep your damp clothing and eventual sweat from wetting out the down bag that most of us carry. Saves that messing around trying to get damp clothing off before getting into the sleeping bag, saves losing gear you might need the next morning, given your mental and physical coordination is probably shot at that point.
Breathable Bivi bags - either the SOL aluminised ones or various other waterproof breathable bags. Probably good, more expensive, heavier, but have some use in non emergency situations. Down sleeping bag will probably lose insulation overnight as it gets damp from wet clothing and body moisture and moisture seeping in from outside once the outside bivi bag is completely wetted out. Again, a second mylar survival bag on the inside of the sleeping bag would probably make a big difference keeping moisture away from the down.
I tend to go with the top option when going to a hut in the winter. In other situations (aiming for valley camp following tops travel) I have a light bivi bag plus very light polycryo tarp with lots of guy points all around it. I could use the guy points to tie it into a bag and crawl in in an emergency on the tops. Carry a mylar survival bag as well to use as a vapour barrier in an emergency.
Other thoughts:
Systems that let you conserve heat of 2 or more people together - bothy bags and similar? Big advantages if you can huddle together, more of a problem if people are separated or one has to go for help.
Day trips when you aren't carrying a sleeping bag?
The Czech woman on the Routeburn did well to survive three nights out on the tops in the midwinter snow and still make it to the hut after they got in trouble, she must have had some combination of good gear / strategy / toughness to get through that.
Who's had to hunker down in a real emergency situation / spent a night out with only emergency gear?
Excellent branch and post.
And great idea about the extra survival bag to go inside your sleeping bag. I've always worried about getting out of wet gear and into my emergency sleep set up without getting the sleeping bag wet, in trying conditions and maybe with the grey matter not fully online. This way, as you say, you could just peel off your rain gear and jump in boots and all.
Would the inner bag need to be breathable? Or, given the extremity of the situation, would the accumulated condensation be trivial?
I carry one of these bivy bags:
http://www.milesgear.com/EBivy.html
I'm sure there are lighter, smaller options. But's it quite rugged, it's roomy (can fit my pack inside overnight or fit a second person), it's affordable enough to not need to baby. It rates my sleeping bag up while still breathing well. They're designed and made by a guy who does SAR on Mt Witney, who by all accounts has bivyed through all that the mountain can throw at you.
I replaced the drawcord top with a Y2K zipper so as to seal off the elements totally if needed.
It's comfortable enough to bivy in by choice, opening up options.
I've never had to use it in rain or snow though. Miles, the maker, told me to turn the hose on it as an acid test it, but I've not experimented yet.
I pair it with a hip length three-season neoair mattress. Small and light enough to disappear in your pack, but way more insulative (and comfortable) against the ground than closed cell foam. Back in noob days (pre internet) I used to sleep on ccf in cold weather and wonder why I always woke up cold.
I've had to bivy unexpectedly about 5 times in my outdoor life, twice on tops, but I got lucky with the weather every time.
"Would the inner bag need to be breathable? Or, given the extremity of the situation, would the accumulated condensation be trivial?"
I think in an extreme situation, you're better with the non breathable liner to your sleeping bag. Your clothing will be wet, better to keep the dampness away from your hopefully still dry sleeping bag insulation. Sure you'll end up somewhat damp and uncomfortable, but being in a warm and damp environment would beat feeling the down insulation turning to wet mush and getting colder and colder.
Once you're warmer and rested and have some food in you, your bodies ability to generate warmth is pretty good, you should then survive even if your sleeping bag gets wet provided you can keep the wind off it. The problem is that if you're exhausted and core temperature is below a certain point it's pretty hard to warm up even with some shelter, so it's better to stop earlier rather than later.
You don't have much time at that point, screwing around taking off wet clothing while it's howling before getting into a sleeping bag and you could end up beyond you ability to coordinate your actions mentally and physically and to generate warmth once you're in you bag.
information here about different types of lightweight shelter, even bivy bags an vary in design quite a bit. some more elaborate and comfortable. others lighter and more basic..
Bivy Bags
http://sectionhiker.com/a-beginners-guide-to-waterproof-bivy-sacks-how-to-choose/
Ultralight shelters
http://sectionhiker.com/how-to-choose-an-ultralight-tent-or-shelter-part-2/
Ian: But down sleeping bags breath as well though, right? So if your interior bag was breathable, along with your sleeping bag, and exterior bag, could be one less lemon against you.
Though I'm likely completely wrong; the science on breathablity leaves me in the dust pretty quickly.
@Craigo:
It won't work like that. Remember it's cold and wet outside. If that moisture goes through a breathable inner liner, it'll either go through as liquid (cos the liner's not waterproof), in which case it wets your insulation, or it goes through as vapour. You're not generating much heat so the dew point is likely to be within your insulation, that vapour will turn back to water within the insulation and end up making it wet in any case. Also the outside of your 'breathable-waterproof' outer bivi bag will end up with a continuous film of water over it, no vapour is going through that so it will condense on the inside and wet your insulation, even if no outside water is getting through that breathable-waterproof membrane.
In 'normal' situations breathability is good, you're hopefully not generating too much moisture in a sleeping situation and your tent / shelter keeps a somewhat warmer and drier environment so moisture does go through.
Even so, it's pretty hard to stop moisture accumulation in a sleeping bag over a longer period when it's really cold as the dew point ends up within your insulation and body moisture condenses there. You don't notice it after a night in an igloo, but spend a week in real cold and it becomes significant.
@ Ian
What you are describing sounds very similar to the 'vapour barrier' concept that has been around for a while, but never made the mainstream.
The core idea is to have a totally impermeable layer next to the skin which keeps the inevitable moisture from your body from getting into your insulation, and then condensing inside of it at the dew point. Most people rebel at the idea that the vapour barrier layer might be cold and clammy, but thinking it over, I suspect it's worth a try.
These guys have a long history with the idea:
http://warmlite.com/vapor-barrier/
Definitely a different approach and well worth a read. Thanks for prompting the thought Ian.
You think they smell bad on outside ?!?!
Carry a SOL survival blanket heatsheet (double) always and an ultralight inflatable mattress for overnighters, even if expecting to hut.
Pack liner is a very large, thickish plastic bag. Could probably rig something if I had to sleep outside.
Used to carry a 1-person bivvy bag (without pole or pegs) as a sleeping bag cover if need be, but not any more.
I was going to ask something similar, for a Northern Crossing of the Tararua trip in summer (the Shaun Barnett route). But might as well attach that to this thread.
This is a 2 people trip (me and my wife), given summer we don't expect snow and ice. As we actually are flexible in our time, we just try to pick a good weather window.
But it's similar to above: if we don't make it to the hut, then what? My approach is taking the sleeping pad (I like to sleep comfortable), we have sleeping bags obviously, but down, so can't get wet. To solve getting these things wet, we were going to take the outer fly of our tent to wrap around us in case it rains. Probably not going to take the tent poles given it might be extremely windy, and you may not have much space on the ranges.
I've been thinking about a bivy bag too, but not sure that would work much better. What do you guys think? Does a SOL survival blanket heatsheet work much better? Taking that too, but wasn't planning on using that against rain, does that work?
Given the discussion above, should you guys be not more concerned about wet sleeping bags, or are you using synthetics?
I'm sure I can handle zero degrees fine out in the open with my sleeping bag, but it can't get wet.
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| Forum | The campfire |
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| Started by | Ian_H |
| On | 4 December 2016 |
| Replies | 32 |
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