What "groups" are tramping clubs inteded for?

nope, a novice should be able to rock up and have their hand held if necessary. the club can educate in a classroom if necessary. if a club wants new members they need to do what the new members want, theres plenty of clubs that are dying because they are too rigid and don't cater well for new members

in recent decades there s a plethora of new outdoor sports have sprung up, lots of events wher you dont have to be in a club to take part, the actitivies provide what people want and the young people flock to them, at the expense of more traditional activities like tramping...

"What do you guys think the trip leader is responsible for?" It would depend on the group they've organised and the mutual expectations they have between each other, but I'd imagine the "leader" would have a responsibility of at least making sure everyone understands what those expectations are.

Agreed, Izogi and Wayno. I also see the leader has having 2 roles: one is to look after the soft skills i.e. communication and morale of the group though they can delegate this task as has happened on trips that I've been on and the other responsibility is to ensure that all other tasks are taken care of (hard skills) and this could mean delegating every task out to other members of the group. Probably in a crisis or emergency the leader might be the person who keeps the overall big picture but then again, the group may choose their own leader in this scenario thus overriding the leader. When it comes to a coroner's court, they may not have such a laissez-faire outlook though. From what I've figured, the coroner looks to see if the leader has followed the usual practice of leaders in tramping clubs with regard to their judgment calls, decisions and actions. I guess with the Auckland online/email hiking group which doesn't have the usual formal structure, they make their reduced responsibilities clear and the coronor's expectations might be different. A case of point would be the NZAC trip to Taranaki where the party split into sub-parties, then sub-parties of sub-parties and a guy decided he and his less experienced g/f would bivvy on the mountain (where they expired of hypothermia) whereas the rest of the party descended and lived to tell the tale. Sometimes the leader is actually just a co-ordinator of getting the party to the roadend with the gear required and paperwork done and other members of the party do both soft and hard skills required on the trip. Most trips I go on follow the 'common adventurer' model. However one trip I went on, where I assumed we were following that model, the leader who I'd just regarded as a co-ordinator, tried to park us up at the bushline while he would go ahead and scout the route along the straightforward ridge - WTF. Inappropriate self-aggrandising at the expense of our expertise-derived autonomy. We just carried on along the ridge. In a common adventurer model in this exact scenario you observe the speed of the others and deduce who's on the best line at the time so join them and so on, keeping in contact with movement of foliage and voices if necessary i.e. no longer able to be in visual contact.

"Sense of commitment to work as a team". Yes, there was a chap who signed up for a club trip as the transport would be cheaper for himself. Once on the trip, he never bothered sticking with the rest of the party as he'd got what he wanted and proceeded to climb the very respectable objective solo. That was the last time he was able to come on a club trip as they'd wised up to him. Tramping is truly a team sport. The group is only as good as how they manage the weakest member in the end. I have written an account on this site of how the 2 weakest members were abandoned by the leader and 2 other strong trampers to be baby-sat by someone who was delegated a task that through wildcards (painful footwear and only having a single torch that died) proved to be beyond him and resulted in their walking past the hut, which was out of sight on a terrace, because the 'leader' knew that a highly experienced member of the faster party had mentioned it was quicker travel in the riverbed. But not in the dark with a failed torch, frosty boulders and exhausted members of the party. The weakest member of the team got the blame for this debacle and the leader who'd abandoned them got no censure, and the person who'd manipulated the leader to abandon them got no censure either. Such is the shenanigans that can happen in clubs. It was only the fact that the 2 other concerned people in the faster group went out looking for the party that hadn't arrived a couple of hours after dusk that prevented this debacle from worsening.

Anyone and everyone should and can join a tramping club Kiel. You've joined this "club" and asked a ton of questions and everyone has been open and helping to you. I'd expect the same to be shown in a tramping club environment. Regardless of skill and experience, don't you agree?

If nothing else I expect the trip leader to ensure timely decisions ARE made. For me this means keeping an eye on the whole group and making sure everyone is physically in contact. No-one gets isolated or abandoned on my shift. The other role is to make sure no is isolated socially or emotionally, that they feel part of the group and their concerns listened to. This especially means asking for input from everyone if an important decision needs making and ideally ensuring a consensus is reached. If the group really cannot reach a decision then the leader gets to make one that is in the interests of the party as a whole. If someone refuses to accept it even then, I'd expect that person to be ruled out of future club trips. People like that create way too much stress and risk. And absolutely the team is only as strong as it's weakest member. And that can mean either physical strength or emotional strength if the trip is particularly challenging. It's important to check in with someone who has gone quiet or is lagging for no apparent reason; maybe they're just fine and want to enjoy some quiet head-space, or maybe they're in a bad place and need support or reassurance. You can't assume. I like the 'circus ring-leader' model of leadership. The guy in the top hat isn't the star act, but he/she is there to ensure the show runs smoothly and the performers look good. And oddly enough the most chaotic trip I ever saw was a rather notorious incident (I won't name the club to protect the guilty) where about 60 people finished up 6 hours overdue and thoroughly embarrassed on a simple day trip ... because despite the fact there was any amount of leadership talent and experience in the group ... everyone assumed someone else was making the decisions when in fact no-one was. Hilarious in hindsight only. And as Honora points out, if something does go wrong the trip leader is the person likely to be answering questions in a coroner's court.

Ah, cool. To help the googlers, here are a few previous threads where we've discussed trip leadership and clubs: * What makes a trip leader: http://tramper.nz/?view=topic&id=1951 * Friends leave woman behind in bush: http://tramper.nz/?view=topic&id=8542 * The fall and rise of tramping clubs and tramping: http://tramper.nz/?view=topic&id=2035 I'm sure there are others. This is one of those topics that goes around in circles.

But if someone is interested in getting into the outdoors and know nothing at all, you don't think they should join a club until they learn a list of basic requirements first? Kids that want to play rugby can't play until they at least know how to kick, pass and tackle?

Also I agree with @Gaiters and @waynowski on the new members thing. It's up to the club as to who they want as members, but query most clubs and they'll claim to be more than happy to take on complete novices. Most even see themselves as having a major role of introducing new people to the outdoors in a safer context than if those people did it themselves. The main responsibility I'd see for a novice member is to be part of it, or don't bother. Learn, and take advantage of the expertise, ask questions, because if you can't fit into the club culture that's being presented then there's probably not much point. Clubs aren't for everyone either, or sometimes it's just that the clubs available in a particular area mightn't be enough, but there's a large variety in club cultures and people, and every club isn't for every person. Just in Wellington, the TTC, the HVTC, the WTMC and the VUWTC all have their own cultures and ways of doing things. They attract quite different types of people. Not all clubs are perfect at actually helping novices flawlessly, or providing a good learning culture. People are human, and some clubs aren't great beyond being an exclusive group of people who know each other. But that's not really the same issue.