great walks now in winter mode. read safety info

i was emailing with doc about the routeburn, they told me it was "closed" i responded, i'm very experienced, in the area and in the current conditons with snow, i have the right gear for the conditions, i will risk assess and risk manage the situation myself thanks and proceed if i consider it safe enough for my abilities. doc didnt respond to my email after that doc arent allowed to advise on any route that isnt an official doc track... they then get into a grey area where it can be argued they offered advice about a route more dangerous than their accepted safer tracks that may fuel someone taking the unofficial route. there was a claim advice was given by a doc staff member about an unofficial route on the routeburn and a person died after a hypothetical discussion with a doc ranger and they went off track... so DOC are pretty strict now with what they will and won't let DOC staff say. they will not help you with any route information as soon as you indicate you are going to leave their officially maintained tracks... they might discuss the weather for the area or transport in and out of the area but thats about it.. some people are just looking to shift blame when things go wrong, my car was T boned by another car that ran through a give way sign,, the driver steadfastly blamed me for supposedly not indicating,, yet he hadnt even seen me approach the intersection in front of his car... it was cut and dry legally, he was 100% in the wrong. whether i was indicating or not wasnt even a factor but to him it was everything.... some people can't or dont want to accept fault when things go badly wrong... crossing a water course is never compulsory, its optional and whoever is crossing is responsible for the decision about crossing, you cant drown in a water course if you don't enter it. how often is it life threatening not to enter a flooded water course? so why was it as claimed by one of the group who tried to cross the stream on the milford where one of them drowned the only option they had as they claimed? responsibility ultimately falls on the individuals in the parks.. theres an article in the news recently, police officer sues starbucks for burning himself with his coffee... if you apply that mentality to tramping, good luck to you, you're going to have some problems when things dont go as you want...

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article20263533.html “It seemed like a fun experience,” Driscoll said. “To my surprise, this trail was very rugged and difficult.”

Hey Pipeking - I usually enjoy your differing opinions on this forum, and your blunt way of presenting yourself, but when you keep making statements such as "in the realm of properly qualified persons not some git that works behind the local office desk." I get rather upset as my beloved wife is one of those people you continue to denigrate. She tells me that their role is "to help people" and, within her own limitations, that's what she always tries to do, as I'm sure do most of the other good people behind DoC's front desks. Those DoC folk will all be different, some very experienced others not so, just like the punters who walk in through the door, and they can only do their best. Interestingly I have just read some of the comments by various people on this thread about what DoC personnel, apparently, are supposed, or not supposed, to say/talk about with punters. My wife says she's heard nothing of such instructions. Admittedly she's in a, not very busy, small office, not one of the big ones, or ones with LARGE mountains nearby. Some of the overseas people who come in scare her with their lack of information and/or total unawareness of the realities of tramping in NZ.

I think DOC should have signs at the info centres and on the major tracks, "while we endeavour to give the best advice at the time, conditions change rapidly in the outdoors and can quickly turn dangerous, the responsibility for your safety is yours" DOC may not be able to find enough people who are very experienced in the outdoors to offer the best possible advice and work in offices, its not high paying work and those with the experience usually don't want to work in an office.. It's not a job I'd like to to. I've seen to many novices in the hills ill equipped and the ones I've spoken to often won't listen to advice. people in jeans and fashion clothes saying they want to climb ruapehu in winter.

I don't mind DOC people giving advice. Often they're in the best position for it and with great knowledge and expertise. But I don't think that finding and employing the most skilled people to give the best possible advice, specifically for their ability to do that, should be top priority, because if it were even possible it'd probably not compensate much for the most common causes of most accidents. There's also the risk of perception that DOC's running some kind of tourism business, assuming direct responsibility over people who it cannot, realistically, possibly take any direct responsibility for. There needs to be a very clear message out there that differentiates between advice that's provided in good faith but never guaranteed to be perfect, and resposibility for good judgement and actions. There's a similar situation with some private operators who aren't actively managing people's experience. I think the shuttle operators around the TAC sometimes get a raw deal for people's decisions and judgement after they're dropped off at the end of a road, but maybe that's an exceptional situation with how it's managed given how insanely popular it is.

well you wonder, when you're paying up to $55 a night for a hut on a great walk per person, maybe people think it entitles them to a bit more and there's a warden there in some huts they will give a compulsory talk on safety, more to do with the hut itself... you start on some of the tracks with impressive signage, but as you get further on the signage becomes almost or totally non existant... nothing to warn people who may expect to have signs spell out all the dangers as you often get overseas... theres absolutely no guarantee that even the great walks will be able to be completed. the milford can flood to a point where its impassable on foot, often enough that they have chains with signs saying track closed the hut warden stretches across the track when it happens... doc will even arrange for helicopters to extract large groups if they are stranded at huts too long. so it varies , between doc doing a lot of the risk assessment and management to it being all down to the individual but you can't expect DOC to do it, its a bonus not a given.. maybe people get confused about how much risk assessment and management will be done for them

This reminds me of stuff like http://www.dw.de/european-towns-remove-traffic-signs-to-make-streets-safer/a-2143663-1

I have the utmost respect for the DOC workers at the coal face in the tourist towns such as Te Anau, Queenstown, Wanaka etc. They have to deal with so many people each day who want to go into areas that they know nothing about other then seeing a photo of it online or seen it recommended in a Lonely Planet. It is far far easier for these DOC staff, who after day upon day on dealing with these sorts of people, to simply treat EVERYONE like an idiot. I deal with 1st year university students for a job. I completely sympathize with DOC as you rapidly get into the habit of treating all 1st years as idiots as well after day upon day of saying the same thing over and over. Signs? People DON'T read them. You can cover a laboratory with signs and 1st Years don't read them and come and ask you where everything is, which are in a clearly labeled location if they would just LOOK. DOC could cover a mountain in danger and warning signs and there will still be idiots who ignore them. Mt Etna and Stromboli don't have danger signs. The Grand Paridiso doesn't have danger sings. Nor does the Tour du Mont Blanc, nor the Eiger Trail, or the Bernese Oberland , nor the Walkers Haute route etc etc etc. It puzzles me why people think everything here needs to be covered in signs, unless they need something blame when things go wrong...

" DOC could cover a mountain in danger and warning signs and there will still be idiots who ignore them. " And some that would cut themselves on the signs

We as a society have put our estate managers in an unenviable position - DoC are expected by coroners, many visitors and the public at large to take a degree of responsibility for the experience and safety of people who choose to go onto our conservation lands. All of us expect them at least to cater for safe use when providing facilities like bridges, huts, and viewing platforms and even to varying degrees tracks. But we, as a group of knowledgeable experienced users, know that nobody else can be responsible for the choices anyone makes for themselves in the outdoors. Some of my pet hates - the warning signs above Carrington, and then the avalanche signs in Waimak Falls hut saying 'don't stay here in dangerous conditions' !!, the hut warning signs saying "its probably safe to drink the water doc has provided" in the nearby creek ?? Most of us would like to help others to make better decisions and have a more positive experience - but littering the outdoor environment (and cluttering our huts) with warning signs, over emphasising risk aversion and ordering people to stay safe (behind the closed signs) isn't going to increase safety very well or very long and meanwhile impacts heavily on the positive experiences and probably encourages dependency on authority. Plenty of our great employees in DoC know this - but when it comes to advising people with out being responsible for people's actions what choice are we giving them? Sometimes it seems DoC are damned if they put up a sign or open their mouths and damned if they don't. What is the best way to share information, to best increase each other's awareness while supporting each other to make responsible decisions?