Ultra light fly

pmcke: No worries, all I wanted to do is show that a tarp can work really nicely; I just think most of the critical views many people have on tarps are based on lack of experience with tarps rather than on actual drawbacks. Do hunters really do that? Great. Leaving anything in the outdoors is extremely disgusting, just don't think twice and report it straight away if you see anyone doing it. If they fold it up compactly and tie it together as a small package, then store it away in the underbrush, that may be acceptable from my point of view. But just leaving it there, definitely not. madpom: If you go anywhere in NZ without mozzie protection, you can't really blame the tarp for that now, can you? :-) Not using a net tent or mozzie proof clothing under a tarp is about the same as leaving your tent door and mozzie door open... sorry for that experience though, must have been hell! FrankB: Honestly, give the tarp a go, preferably with someone who knows how to use one, or at least after reading some knowledgeable stuff about it - for this, you could get "Beyond Backpacking" from the library. Ray Jardine certainly is a curious character and won't be liked by everyone, but he presents loads of great thinking outside the box ideas and strategies for tramping. A read very much worth the time, whether you want to try tarping or not. As to the water on the ground: Well, unless you sleep directly on horizontal and flat rock, i.e. a parking lot, the water goes underneath your groundsheet, and out the other side. You should actually prefer slightly sloped terrain in bad weather for that reason, and obviously, the thicker the moss or grass underneath, the better, as it provides more space for the water to go through - also the warmer and more comfy, as it adds extra layers to your camp mat. I am in no way exaggerating when I say I have never been drier than since we started tarping. From what I hear, the hammocks are an extremely weather proof shelter. Whether you are comfy in them seems to depend on personal preference. My question would be how often I would have trouble finding the two trees or big rocks needed to hang them from. Above the bushline, they would probably give you trouble finding a site; on the other hand, seeing how dense the bush often is in New Zealand, below the bushline they might well open up a ton of possible camping spots to you that are completely out of the question for sleeping on the ground, since they are too steep for that. Tempting. I have been thinking for a while to make the floor of the tarp net tent strong enough to double as a hammock, which doesn't actually have to be all that heavy, I think PU Nylon would probably be fine. Then you could either pitch the tarp, and hang the net tent underneath, or alternatively hang the net tent hammock-style, hang the tarp above the hammock, and lift the net tent up by clipping its ridge to the tarp line... what do you think? Generally I think though that hammocks only work comfy for one person, as two or more would always get squished together in the centre. Unless that's what you're after, of course... Honora: Don't know what the hunters use, but I think Mitre10 only sells one type of black Polyethylene by the metre, so that should be it. It is also used extensively in farming; so if you want to buy a whole roll, you'll get much better prices there. Mitre10 has two different thicknesses, and each comes in 2 or 4 m width. 4m is plenty, we never need to extend that really. The thicker one that they sell is 250 micron, the thinner is 125 micron (1000 micron = 1mm). I personally think the 125 is plenty strong; we're currently considering to switch to 80 micron, which you only get from the suppliers for farming directly in whole rolls. It still seems strong enough to me if you're not totally reckless with it, and saves about 300 grams compared to the 125 micron stuff for tarp that sleeps 2 adults and at least one child - and 300 grams is worth thinking about for us. The "three corners down" pitch is indeed very strong, on the other hand useless if the wind changes a lot, which I find it often does. We never needed / used it so far, rather just put the tarp down pretty low. About chest height at the ridge was always low enough, and we had some really terrifying storms in it - below the bush line though. If you're keen, send me a PM! We're doing a lot of poly tarp experimenting in the next two months or so, maybe you can join our poly tarp workshop where we whip up a bunch of them for the new people in the Trailbabies group so they have affordable, reliable, light shelter quickly to go on trips. Cheers, Matt

Honora, if you're going to get string for some poly-tarp experimenting, I would recommend paracord, especially for the ridge line. It's thick enough and quite flexible and soft, which means the ridge lasts longer - thin lines can sometimes cut into the ridge, especially if they are not properly taut. Also, paracord useful to tie to the corners with sheet bends, for the same reason. You don't need paracord for the actual lines on the corners though, it's a bit of an overkill, so you can just tie a loop right near the corner, and then attach a thinner line to that loop. The military outlet store on Colombo sells paracord by the metre, it's the only offline source around I know of so far. Don't skimp too much, trees don't grow in a four by four metre grid :-) so about twelve metres or even more make sense. You can always cut it shorter if after some experience you are sure you don't need all that. On the other hand, having some reasonably strong rope with you is quite useful sometimes as well, e.g. for lowering / lifting packs after decending / climbing some tricky bits. Just in case anyone reading this doesn't realise: DON'T use paracord for climbing or belaying or securing people! It will hold your weight easily in a static situation, but if you just bob a bit up and down, it easily snaps. Matt

@Matt: Thanks for the tip about getting paracord from that shop and the length you recommend. I was going to get some spectra cord that Aarn Tate offered me but of course have never got around to it (and he's away a lot). I would be dead keen to join you on your workshop with the trail babies. I have my cheap, adapted fly to play with in the bombproof set-up. Incidentally here is a really well-presented tarp set up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjMmla9DSzo Regarding the hammocks: apparently there is some amazing design that ensures that when you lie down on the hammock, it is completely flat. I don't think your tarp or the inner net would be a starter for comfort. I have gone onto the Hammock Forum and had a bit of a look. That's where I found the above video link.

Matt, many thanks for the informative and comprehensive response. I have looked at several sites in respect of the hammocks, and they all have what is essentially a fly strung over the top. The fly in some cases does not look as if it would totally exclude some dampness in swirling wind and rain. I will most definitely check the book recommendation. I can't help but wonder at the fly/tarp idea but then again if one is having to have ground sheet and tarp plus the necessary tie downs whether there is a significant weight saving to ne had over the modern tents. Similarly if one opts for the hammock and uses an oversize fly for that little extra comfort in adverse conditions what weight saving is there. The idea of a tarptent that doubles as a hammock sounds like a feasible alternative. If I was travelling above the bush line a lot I think a tent is the only way to ensure some comfort. Albeit I see some versions touted as being able to be used on the ground like a biv bag. I quite like the comfort factor of a hammock, having always found it easy to fall asleep in one, and being someone who finds even light sleeping bags somewhat warm to sleep in I don't think there would be a problem insulation wise. You can of course get double hammocks. However the significant other is most likely to get a headahce just thinking about that and I am most likely to get a headache when I get pushed over the side for snoring. Bad enough getting an elbow in the ribs at the best of times. Frank

Honora: PM sent. FrankB: Shelter quality depends on size, of course. If you want a 2m wide area sheltered, you need a tarp that's at least near 3m wide, I would say. So some designs may be a bit on the short side, yeah, especially what I've seen on photos for hammocks. You will enjoy the book, guaranteed! You may have to put your name on the waiting list, it's quite sought after sometimes. Comparing modern tents with a modern tarp, a tarp does provide significant weight savings in my opinion. You can get shelter for one person with both, for about the same weight I would say (give or take a bit); BUT a tarp provides you dramatically more space for the same weight. For two people, the tent loses on the weight comparison already, and on space even more. That's based on sil-nylon tarp including black 125 micron polyethylene ground sheet, modern quality lines that are not overweight, and quality high strength aluminium pegs with a y-shaped cross section (so not the spaghettisticks that some shops claim to be pegs, which pull through the soil like a knife blade). That setup sleeps two adults and a child comfortably, three adults and a child still works; and weighs around 1.3 kilograms. We did initially carry 12 (!) pegs for our tarp (2 for ridge, 4 for corners, 2 along each side = 4, and 2 for lifter lines), but we rarely used them and probably never really had to use them. So we now carry 8, which still is plenty (ridge, corners, lifter lines), and if we should ever need the sides pegged down, I just cut a few sticks, which also hold much better in loose soil due to their rough outside. All but the ridge and four corner lines are really, really thin stuff and weigh next to nothing - comparable to what Bunnings sells by the metre for 18 cents a metre, have a look. If you're careful, you could probably even use that for the corners. Aside from the weight and space, no matter what anyone says, I still hold from experience that no however well thought out tent will even come close to the dryness of clothes and sleeping bag that a tarp provides; no tent can ever provide that degree of ventilation. You have to experience the difference to fully understand it I guess. Not sure about the hammock, no experience. Main advantage I would see is much more site options in steep terrain below the tree line; and maybe if you're into tree climbing, the possibility to stealth camp ten or fifteen metres above the ground (wearing your climbing harness attached to a climbing rope attached to a tree!!), which would essentially make it possible to camp in Hagley Park without anyone ever noticing :-) We travel quite high above the bush line a lot! We just usually go down below to camp at night. We would survive a night or two in storms above the bush line and in snow as well, maybe not very comfortably, but without needing a chopper or hospital the next morning, so no problem there; but it's more comfortable below - in my opinion, no matter whether you are in a tent or under a tarp. Obviously, if you are talking about real mountaineering, that's a different matter I think. If you're afer peaks, I would say basically any peak that you are reasonably likely to reach and get back below the bush line within daylight is within reach with a tarp. And if it doesn't work out before sunset, well, pitch the tarp only half a metre or so low at the ridge, sides on the ground, if you have beaks, close them down almost to the ground, and you'll be fine. Above the bush line there should be enough heavy rocks to tie it to as well. That may sound very limited head space, and it is, but you'll find that that rarely ever happens, at least if you have enough experience in tramping to be able to estimate your trip durations well - and it's much more space than a bivy would give you! In 95% of all cases, you'll have a great time up there during the day, and when the sun sets, you'll be eating your dinner under or in front of your tarp, below the bush line, relaxing in a luxuriously sheltered location. And if on the way down weather looks calm for the night, you can still decide to stay above the bushline for the views in the morning! Regarding the beaks - if you want to add those for more storm worthyness - have a look at ray-way tarps to see what I mean. I personally am currently thinking of trying to use a simple rectangular flat tarp, and if needed clip separate beaks to the ridge and corners. It should still keep 99% of the drifting spray out if you clip the ridge far enough away from the edge of the tarp so there's an overlap; and the plain flat tarp allows for more pitching variations than one with attached beaks, since they prevent it from being spread out completely flat. So many options... and there's surely more than one way that works well, grante! Matt

Matt, You have certainly provided some food for thought. I will do a little more research on this. Size and weight are a consideration when looking at hammocks and being in excess of 6 feet at 95 kg the hammock required doesn't come much lighter than a tent. But then I believe the comfort factor come into play. Being able to fully stretch out in a hammock appeals plus as you rightly state there are many more options to camp, provided trees are available. One variety of hammock states in can be used on the ground like a biv bag. Perhaps combine that with a slightly oversize bat wing tarp and it prove to be an interesting compromise. I think it would certainly provide significantly more dry space. Many thanks for your comments. I shall continue to look at the alternatives and then try a bit of experimentation. Frank

Hey, this is a great thread ive done alot of tarping over the last few years and find it to be lightwieght and hassel free to set up This link here has a pretty handy tarp method since you dont always get 2 trees the perfect width apart. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzJHuWlEAtk&feature=related I use this quite alot and just change the A-frame sticks to a branch off a tree KP

Hi, just wanted to add that I realised today that the paracord that Kiwi Disposals sells is NOT real 550 mil spec paracord. It is paracord, i.e. outer shell and separate inner strands, but it is much thinner and weaker than real 550 paracord. That's not to say that it's a bad product, but if you need something comparable to 550 paracord for a particular reason - e.g. like to hang a poly-tarp from because you need the thickness to avoid it cutting into the tarp, or some application that needs the strength of 550 paracord - the stuff that Kiwi Disposals currently sells is NOT it. Which is frustrating, because that means there is no local source for actual 550 paracord that I know of, which leaves ordering from overseas as the only option. Cheers, Matt

Thanks everyone for a fascinating thread; everyone has put up really interesting stuff that has been real food for thought. @Honora. I’ve used a Henessey hammock as my emergency shelter for some years now. I’m a little too large to sleep in it blissfully, but it is wonderfully versatile. Having it adds an extra degree of comfort factor, knowing that so long as I’m below tree-line I can camp anywhere, anytime safely. Even if I couldn’t pitch it as a hammock, the fly can still be rigged up as a useful emergency bivvy. The big bugbear of all hammocks is that any temperature below 10degC is a problem. A real problem. I tried all sorts of solutions. In the end I found an inflatable Exped Symat 7 was the best compromise for me. Closed cell poly pads are useless as they will not curve in two directions at the same time, wrinkle up and find ways to pop out from under you with the least movement. Nor are they warm enough. The Synmat curves correctly and is adequately warm enough for most NZ conditions short of deep winter in the Alps. At about 900gm the Synmat is heavier than I’d like, but it lets me get a decent night’s sleep regardless of where I am… like those nights when you have to sleep on the floor or verandah of an overcrowded hut, or shelters with no mattresses, or darkness catches you on the road somewhere bare and rough. I used to be able to sleep anywhere, but age has changed that… and I find that if I sleep badly a few nights running the complexion of the whole trip turns sour rather quickly.

I do most of my tramping in the Tararuas and I always carry a Outdoor Research bivy bag for those moments when you have to escape down to the bushline, or get behind a rock face, and just hunker down. I had a fly made by Hunt Tech in Upper Hutt which works well in combination, or by itself, for summer tramping, but I still wouldn't be without the bivy bag for those emergencies, and as pmcke says, that puts your combined weight up to that of a Microlite tent anyway. Overall, I still reckon a bivy bag is easier than a tent for these situations, plus you can fit in a trench in the tussock. Of course, even with a small piece of black polythene as a groundsheet, you're still getting wetter, so you need synthetic fill in the sleeping bag, but that's another story. And a fly simply wouldn't cut it. If you can't stand up, how can you hold down a fly? A fly is ok if you're staying on the valley floor in summer, although I can also vouch for the horrific sandfly problem at Nelson Lakes. Maybe a collapsible fly screen cage for the face? With earplugs? Sleeping tablets? That's more weight. I also got into the Ray Jardine thing quite a few years ago, but after a couple of nasty experiences with lightweight tramping gear not being up to the task, I went back to the trusty Macpac/Swazi stuff. It tends to hold together when you're bush-bashing. My tuppence worth, anyway. Mind you, there is some new generation lightweight stuff that the iClimb site is selling - they advertise in the FMC booklet -that looks pretty tasty. And the old bones are not getting any younger..