The track gradings question
Original post
Hi everybody,
This has been discussed in the past ( http://tramper.co.nz/?view=topic&id=2080 ). But I want to return to it and start implementing changes. The reason I think it needs to change is that subjective terms like "easy" are not helpful. They are both subjective and misleading -- an "easy" track with flooded rivers may be deadly.
Note that grades are never a complete description of a track, but they are useful in helping users search tracks that might be suitable for them. Grades need to be easy to understand, and not misleading.
Here is my proposal. The existing grade and grade notes to be replaced with four attributes:
* Grade (1-7 scale),
* Fitness indicator (A-D scale)
* Notes (checkboxes to indicate challenges and hazards, e.g. alpine conditions, river crossings, and type-in)
* Winter conditions (type-in)
Grade as follows:
1. Easy access short walk suitable for assisted wheelchair or stroller. Details to be provided in notes. Currently described as "Easy".
2. Short walk on smooth well-maintained track with hazards
well-managed. Suitable for walking shoes. Currently described as "Easy".
3. Easy walking on smooth well-maintained track with hazards
well-managed. Suitable for walking shoes or light weight hiking boots. Generally, Great Walks standard. Currently described as "Easy".
4. Generally easy walking and well marked. Somewhat rough underfoot with roots, mud, slips. Some routes follow rivers.
Hazards include: rivers. Lightweight hiking boots. Typical lowland tramping track. Currently described as "Easy/medium".
5. Unformed and poorly marked lowland track with hand-over-hand scrambling, or a marked but unformed tops track. Navigation skills required on open tops and passes. Suitable for experienced trampers only. Hazards include: tops, rivers. Currently described as "Medium".
6. Unmarked routes along rivers, ridges, and tops. Strong navigation skills, risk identification, and snow skills and equipment required. Scrambling on scree and steep grassy slopes. Hazards include: snow, tops, falls, and rivers. Currently described as "Medium/hard".
7. Exposed, challenging terrain that may require basic mountaineering skills and equipment. Currently described as "Hard".
Comments:
What are people's thoughts on combining both lowland and tops tracks in one grade (5)? Is this reasonable?
The distinction between grades 6 and 7 could be better defined. I don't do much walking at this end of things so I would welcome ideas. Should they be kept separate? How would you define these two grades? Do you have examples?
Fitness indicator as follows:
A: Less than 2 hours walking, gentle climbs.
B: Up to 4 hours per day, gentle climbs.
C: Up to 8 hours per day, ascents of up to 1000m.
D: More than 8 hours per day, or ascents of more than 1000m.
Comments:
What do you think of the balance between time and climb? Is it about right? I could switch it over to distance and climb. Any suggestions for that?
Notes to include checkboxes for: alpine conditions, river crossings, route finding, exposure to falls.
Please let me know your thoughts. Any change in grades will be staged, with a testing period.
43 comments
I agree with you 100% @Madpom
Rabbit Pass? Yup, using Madpom's ratings above covers it. If you're hardcore enough to do it in winter then, as the DOC website says, treat everything as alpine crossings with appropriate alpine gear. Moirs guide doesn't help you in winter! And it cant be updated after storms!
In regards having some kind of (aspirationally) objective rating system alongside a subjective rating, these are two separate projects. I'll note subjective ratings down as a future feature request at this stage as my priority is to move away from the current "Easy/medium/hard" grades.
In regards winter conditions, I think these are best covered by a text field at this stage. You can do anything with a text field except sort by it.
In regards storms and track damage, you can add an alert regarding track damage. But I don't think it makes any sense to include damage in a grading system.
A web app has a huge advantage over guidebooks in that it can take a myriad of data in and process it into user-friendly forms behind the scenes. It can hide complexity unless you want to see it, allow you to sort or filter by whatever you like, remember preferences, etc etc. All this means that we don't need to stick to a simple 1-5 scale as is done in a book.
What's next? I will be mocking up a non-functional search form which embodies the complexity we're talking about here, and we can use that as a reality check.
I would be quite keen for the various grade scales to have the same number of options if possible. May not be possible....
@madpom ok to start with, sorry the questions were in regards to the very first post listing grades etc (the reference to climbing Taranaki... no route listed just Taranaki) and mitre pk.
So... rabbit pass, no mention of the fact that there are no huts on this route (except top forks) which I think if your grading should be a possible factor? and no bridges either.. which is why I tossed this one up. It is also a route which has seen several fatalities.
And are these guides going to be written by people who have actually been there? I mean by this comment:
"Never crossed in winter, so I'd be guessing"
I do wonder.
I only used Moirs (and yarmoss the copy I own has every pass covered with a winter note, perhaps you need to spring for an updated copy bud?) as a example and added 'etc' because there are so many other guides its not funny, I also mentioned DOC (I know shit track record but hey..) and other groups i.e. local clubs
I am thinking you should definitely write a good disclaimer for this app, it is hard to sue in NZ, but not impossible.
In my honest opinion, when we start grading approaches you really gotta question the capabilities of people you are encouraging...
*Yarmoss picks up his copy of Moirs Guide North 8th Edition 2013 by Danilo Hegg and Geoff Spearpoint, and turns to pages 96-97, 100, and 109-110 and reads the three entries for Rabbit Pass.
"Hmmm" he thinks. "There is precisely zero mention to crossing Rabbit Pass in winter. I wonder if there was back in Moirs Guide North 7th Edition 2005 by Geoff Spearpoint pages 85, 86 and 94."
Yarmoss reads those three entries as well. "Nope, zero mention for crossing in winter. In fact, Moirs states repeatedly that the route should not be taken lightly by parties at any time and avoided altogether when wet or windy".
Translation: if you go over Rabbit Pass in winter you either have a deathwish or are an idiot.
Yarmoss appreciates Damon making assumptions about him and likewise assumes Damon is the later.*
Hmm well based on the fact that I myself and several other people I know of have done this route in winter and the fact that you refer to yourself in a third person manner, I am going to very safely assume you my friend are a kook.
sorry but we were playing the 'assume' game, you may not be so forgive me if I was just assuming.
Well I wrote the Rabbit Pass guide that's on this website based on MY experiences crossing it... in summer... because I am not a mountaineer/winter tramper, and I make no claims to be. Please, by all means, edit it to include your vastly superior knowledge seeing as you have crossed it in winter.
While you are at it please feel free to contact Danilo and Geoff and tell them how they should write the 9th edition of Moirs North (assuming, again, that they will be the next ones authors). Give whoevers in charge of Moirs South a kick up the pants while your at it as that book (which I also own, thanks for asking) needs an update. Still havn't seen any mention to winter routes to any passes... you must have a very special edition of Moirs indeed.
You clearly are a vast font of knowledge... how about sharing it by contributing to this website instead of just criticizing others... "bud"
Yeah I have the latest edition of moirs too and no mention of winter routes over Rabbit pass.
I havent been a member for that long here and seldom post. I would not say I have any ties to any members here.
The last week I have been posting a bit and I cant help but notice Damon has a very abrasive manner to many of his posts. I dont get that sort of thing on forums. There always seems to be someone like that.
Do you remember Matski from the start of the year? I get the odd feeling of déjà vu when reading Damon's posts...
* internet monitors worldwide puzzle to explain a sudden surge in traffic from NZ to urban slang websites providing definitions of the word Kook *
'someone posing very hard as a surfer or skateboarder. '
'The word "kook" is one of the most hurtful words in surfing. To be called a "kook" means that you can't surf well, have a terrible style, talk trash, or even snake your fellow surfers. Maybe you do all these things at once. '
So we're all just wannabes and should leave the writing of route guides to experts like himself. And probably the tramping too. I assume that's what I'm supposed to take from that.
To be honest I dont follow to much of anything. Just here for the info. Not keen to get involved with forum politics. But its just as Ive been following threads this week just feels like the posts are just abrasive mostly and I dont get that mentality. But I dont want to lead the topic off track.
This thread was closed by matthew .
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| Started by | matthew |
| On | 7 June 2014 |
| Replies | 42 |
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