I guess I have to agree izogi. Tourists and locals alike are all perfectly capable of doing stupid things in the bush.
I'd suggest that wayno is really talking about something deeper than this. Perhaps one pertinent comparison I can think of is how the traditional owners of Uluru, the Anangu people -http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/tourism/uluru/background/history/anangu.html - felt about the way tourists ignorantly and disrespectfully treated the place for decades. Most of it was just a lack of awareness.
You are perfectly correct - it's not this site which is the problem - it's an entire industry now determined to strip-mine our back country for as many traveller dollars as it can. That's what's changed. And ultimately it's what energised the Anangu in their fight to assert their guardianship - it wasn't just the ignorance that hurt, it was seeing others profiting from it.
But on balance I'm happy to join wayno's group, because it's perfectly justified to have a 'kiwi space' for ourselves. Besides it's about time I learnt how to drive Facebook.:-;
This post has been edited by the author on 21 March 2015 at 23:13.
A bit mystified by people having issues when going to places that are overrun by people from countries with the third and fourth largest GDP's i.e. the countries that lost WWII.
If you want to avoid these people, then go to places they don't generally go to. There's plenty of space here still. I went to a hut a few years ago that had had no entries in the hut book for 8 years (Ant Stream biv). And recently we spent the night at the Esk Biv where the number of people who've actually stayed there would be less than 10. It takes around 8 hours to get there from your car.
When Frank and I visited Back Basins Hide, it had had no visitors for the previous 5 years. We did some track clearing and marking to help people get there. If the remote huts aren't visited, then DoC will remove them. I'm happy to see German, Japanese or whatever visiting these places.
It's a balancing act Honora. While I agree there are lots of spots which are still plenty lonesome (there's one fine little bivvy within six hours walk of Masterton which I still treasure) - it doesn't take all that much for them to become overrun.
For instance Holdsworth is now a booking only hut. One weekend evening my partner and I finished up squashed on the veranda of Totara Flats Hut with about 20 others perched there and another 50 or so inside. Too many.
Tramping clubs typically understand this issue and usually ensure that the number of people on a trip is not likely to overwhelm the capacity of the huts or facilities. For many decades our own internal culture sort of managed this - we go to the hills for the wilderness experience and it was important to us that out own massed presence did not overly compromise this.
But overseas visitors have no way to engage with this. They just arrive and go places they've read about - and slowly but surely the front country is getting busier and busier. In another decade or so this trend will see virtually everywhere become 'front country'.
Like you I don't see this as a necessarily bad thing - but there remains the lingering sense that its a trend which left to it's own devices may not work out all that well either.
This post has been edited by the author on 21 March 2015 at 23:50.
Phillip, have you ever been to Ayer's Rock? (BTW, it's officially called both Ayer's Rock and Uluru).
Anyway, those 'traditional land owners' were fine with all. They allowed a big-arse striped line to be painted across the rock, and worse, holes drilled into it for chain poles. Yep. They gave the ok.
A big part of the reason you hear them kick up a stink is because of money. Pure and simple.
I do not have a problem climbing the rock. At all. They allowed roads. They allowed to rock to be altered. They built a big awareness centre right near the rock, and actively ask people not to climb. I believe that it's because if people stopped climbing the rock, less people would come, and then the government would give them more money for them to welcome tourists back.
This sounds ultra cynical. However, I have lived in the outback, and had a lot to do with the aboriginal people. Been to the rock a number of times. And, given the facts, I stand by my assessment.
Yeah - I understand real life is pretty complex. I'd not quibble with your first-hand experience.
Even in NZ it's pretty easy to be cynical about some of the motives of various iwi and how some have become very big business indeed.
Yet none of that really undercuts the essential. That when you are a guest somewhere it's just good manners to learn about your hosts, and understand something of what is important to them.
Our problem as kiwi trampers - is that we aren't all that good at being hosts.
I'm more concerned about the mass of non-paying freeloaders, but if Waynowski wants to run his own exclusive web group, sure, why not. Why can't you choose your own friends ?.
ummm, do hunters qualify?? or better maybe a term is "armed trampers"???
It would be good to see a forum where theres less about great walks, Milford etc etc, and more about the good spots.
The only thing certain in life is that things will change. As I get older I have learned to try and accept what IS. Not always successfully! lol Thus I often meet people tramping these days whereas in the past not so many. I'm always friendly and nearly always come away happy with any interactions. Many times I get to a hut and am sad to find it already occupied, then I adjust to what is, and all is well.
Similarly I adjust to the fact that some people do not pay, and life goes on.
We've lost more opportunities (facilities in the back country) to under use than over use.
Use of facilities is not a negative, unless you want to argue for exclusivity for the privileged.
Abuse is the problem, and over crowding is a form of abuse, that leads to loss of opportunities for everybody.
"over crowding is a form of abuse"
yes it is, and kiwis are just not familiar with this yet, but we need to be aware that this is just the beginning..
"adjust to the fact that some people do not pay, and life goes on."
This is true, and in fact this is the mantra all obedient servants need to learn. As long as we all keep paying for the lifestyles of the ruling elite, life goes on.. hehe
Honora, exactly what I was getting at, but put in a much better way! There are SO many places you can go to avoid crowds, you just have to do your home work :)
