COroners report on death on Mt Taranaki climb

I don't understand: "prior experience in these conditions or having used ice axes or crampons before" but they obviously knew how to use crampons and knew iceaxe techniques like self-arrest. It doesn't seem that it was their first trip either? And later on: "for non-mountaineers it is best to climb during the summer months" Obviously when you are going with alpine gear like crampons and ice axe, this is a mountaineering trip, so I don't see the point in saying that. They might not have had enough experience or judgement, but they clearly didn't think it was just a summer hike and went prepared. This is a quite confusing statement really.

Like saying to a skydiver 'you'd be way safer waiting till the plane lands before getting out'. True. But missing the point of the whole exercise?

it takes skill to use an ice axe and crampons properly, just because you have them and some experience, doesnt mean you are experienced enough for the conditions. if you've never had to self arrest on ice on a steep slope before, and I have... you'll never understand how hard it is, you either react lightning fast and stop yourself extremely quickly or as the seconds tick by you accelerate to a high speed and your chances of stopping yourself drop dramatically, there are stories about long trails of blood on slopes because the snow or ice was so hard and the people were travelling so fast it shreded their clothes, if you dont get enough weight over the ice axe head your chances of getting it to hold arent good.... if you dont hold it tightly enough it can be ripped out of your grip... if you're not coordinated walking in crampons , its easy to catch a spike and trip and take a fall... if you fall upside down or on your back, it takes longer to get in the correct position to self arrest and reduces the chances of you stopping, dozens of people have died on mt taranaki in these circumstances and a lot more have been seriously injured, they had the right gear but they still werent able to use it to save their lives when they took a fall...

Yeah @wayno I agree, they might not have had enough experience, but that's not what the guy says. Plus you can be super-experienced and still fail to self-arrest in time on hard ice, it happens to everyone. I think the main problem here is more that they continued on something that was too hard for them, but maybe they didn't realize it? I saw a lot of people going on stuff that was too hard/too dangerous, and 99% of them do just fine in the end. Not sure that the 1% who don't get through are teaching anything to the next 99% though…

"Summit fever" wasnt mentioned, they may have been reasonably close to the top by that stage and the temptation to continue was there since they may have gone most of the way there, but it was too far in the end... you set yourself a goal, but they failed to reassess the goal . the real goal is to return safely, the summit is a bonus, its optional... thats why Sir Ed said you havent climbed a mountain successfully until you have returned back safely, he was trying to plant the seed in peoples minds to keep a safe return on their mental radar at all times and affect their decision making in a holistic way rather than just focusing on the summit

"but they obviously knew how to use crampons and knew iceaxe techniques like self-arrest. It doesn't seem that it was their first trip either?" ... "they might not have had enough experience, but that's not what the guy says." I don't follow your reasoning. Isn't the claim of not enough experience covered by this following statement in the article? Especially the 2nd and 4th paragraphs. "A New Zealand Mountain Safety Council (NZMSC) report, prepared for the coroner, said by following the poled summit route the men kept to the firm icy ridges but had to cut steps using their crampons and ice axes. "However, the report stated the pair were "far outside of their limits" and supplied video footage showed Roucher was using poor cramponing technique and neither of the men had experience cutting steps. "Unfortunately the pair realised too late that the conditions on the poled summit route were beyond their level of competence and that they may find it easier off the ridge. "The pair's choice of route exposed them to challenging conditions, especially for beginner mountaineers with no prior experience in these conditions or having used ice axes or crampons before." From that statement it sounds like they were equipped with ice-axes and crampons, but they were beginners at it and didn't really have the skills to use them reliably. There's always an element of risk in places like this, and a simple mistake can end tragically, but I thought the claim of the MSC report and the Coroner (just going by how Stuff's reported it) was that they'd increased those chances of mistake by not gaining the optimal skills needed for their equipment and the conditions prior to going there.

question is did they rent the ice axes and crampons.... places that rent that gear tend to take little responsibility, not that its easy for them to take responsibility, but if you are renting in new plymouth, theres a high chance you will use them on mt taranaki, and if you know the conditions are difficult, it would be good to tell people if the current conditions are for experienced people only, and how much experience do they have with ice axe and crampons. its no good renting alpine gear if you have little or no experience in using it... one problem with incorrect self arrest technique is, if you dont keep your crampons clear of the ice when you fall, they can catch and flip you over or the force of them catching at speed can break your ankle or damage your joints... crampons are great when they are working and can give you a lot of confidence to climb a steep icy mountain, but what matters is how you handle yourself when you take a fall

I'll not claim to be an expert here, but from what I hear and from the courses I've done, even correct self-arrest technique has a high probability of failure, especially if you don't manage to stop early on. A preferable strategy, if at all possible, is to avoid falling as much as possible.

yes, thats my impression, the longer, if you're on a steep slope, the longer you take to stop yourself, then your chances of successfully stopping , greatly diminish. You build up speed extremely rapidly, i've watched it happen personally several times and if you don't stop yourself rapidly, , the force you need to stop yourself increases and if you cant get your ice axe into the surface very far then all you'll do is either have your ice axe bounce off the surface or the axe just won't be able to brake you enough .... you really need to practice self arresting thoroughly, finding a safe slope where you wont build up to much speed and that flattens out before too long and practice falling over different ways, fall on your back, fall upside down on your front and back and practice manouevering yourself into the proper self arrest position as rapibly as possible. mountains like Mt Taranaki and Ngauruhoe are no joke in winter in snow or ice, you dont have to negotiate vertical slopes to et to the top but you need to be we practiced in self arresting and correct ice axe and crampon technique, or at least be roped up to several people who do know what they are doing, but its not a place for novices to learn. 80 peole have died on taranaki, and hundreds more have been injured and rescued... ther was a case the other year on ngauruhoe of someone getting stuck, alpine rescue personnel landed by helicopter and bent their ice axe trying to carve out a shelf, although this may have been due to thin ice and hitting rock underneath. it still shows what can go wrong even with experienced people with ice axes... the problem is , those mountains are a steep walk, so anyone with crampons and ice axes can start walking up them.... it all comes down to whether you fall over and how you handle falling over... if you take a long fall on Taranaki and can't stop yourself, the chances of going over a large cliff face or hitting a rock outcrop are reasonably high and ngauruhoe is only marginally better.