Two dead in the Tararuas

I think TararuaHunter is right. The advice of the police is pretty much useless. How do you know how to prepare if you haven't experienced 90km/h winds on one of the Tararua mountains? The police would have done much better giving the advice I read in this thread I believe: "know when to bail." I always ask people what their plan B is. Let's hope at some point we get to know a little bit more about the gear they took. Did they take rain gear? Did they have a beanie?

Here latest police report: http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/update-trampers-found-dead-tararua-forest-park-21-november

Police are just loosely paraphrasing the Mountain Safety Code. It's non-specific for good reason, because there's no specific appropriate way to prepare for every situation. Each person really must take responsibility for understanding and managing their own safety, or finding someone who can reliably do it for them. If your trip has a chance of going near 90km/h winds, then it's your responsibility to know that, to understand it, and to adequately prepare for it and make appropriate decisions. I'm certain there's more detail to come out here, now probably not until the Coroner gets going. I'm very curious to learn as much as is known about what happened, but it's not necessary for anyone to have that detail before they can adequately prepare for whatever they're intending.

+1 to Berend de Boer - most important thing and so often not mentioned is to know when to bail, to have a plan B or just back the way you came BEFORE things get too bad. I've had limited personal experience with hypothermia (although plenty with extreme cold). My one brush was the result of stumbling into a tarn that was completely covered with snow and getting wet in cold, murky, windy conditions. Luckily we were heading down at the time so were soon into the shelter of the bush but I did have to give over responsibility for navigation as I just couldn't do it properly anymore. Even when you have got all the gear unexpected things can happen (like getting wet in an invisible tarn) or someone else can get hurt or just plain slow you down too much. These days if the forecast is horrible I just don't go - getting soft/sensible in my old age.

izogi, can't we do better than "be prepared"? That's so generic, it's useless. Prepare for what? Isn't the problem often not knowing what you don't know? The advice "know when to bail" is a lot more helpful IMO. "Be prepared" gives false knowledge that somehow you, without knowing you are not prepared, can be prepared.

izogi said a lot more than "be prepared" thats taking what he said out of context, he's given a good sumation on preparedness, given its not his job to educate people on the subject

Hi Berend. I think part of the trouble is that trying to simplify safety advice in a way that'll be reliably communicated via media, and remains applicable to the wide variety of situations where people might try to apply it, is very difficult to do. If you want to learn about mountain safety, then don't read a news article. Go out with a variety of other people. Take courses. Talk to people. Learn about their experiences and the reasons they do things the way they do. Carry out your own experiments in controlled settings and learn about what's going on and what you can expect. Review your past experiences, discuss them with others and consider what can be learned from them. This website's one possible way of getting that exposure, but certainly not the only way. I much prefer this Police approach to the RCCNZ's often-typical line of "everyone just take a PLB and we'll rescue you". That advice, which has nothing to do with considering how people reach bad situations, seems to be somehow derived from their exclusive sample of 'everyone they've rescued', which is about all they see because under the system if someone hasn't pressed a button they get shouldered off to Police. If it's not enough to state that responsibility is paramount then I guess the 'know your limitations' component of the Code is really really important. Police suggested knowing your limitations as part of the statement.

A piece of gear that I've used in these conditions that has been invaluable has been a large plastic bag big enough to fit 5 people sitting or 2 people standing up in it. This enables a lunch stop or snack stop and also importantly, a shelter for layering up more. I must admit I've haven't taken it lately (though I should) because we take Stunted's approach: These days if the forecast is horrible I just don't go - getting soft/sensible in my old age. The bag has various names e.g. bothy bag or down here in Chch it has been called a bertie bag after Bert McConnell, a local instructor.

"Bothy bags" are very popular with "hill walkers" in the UK. I always carry one in NZ if going post-bushline in a less than perfect forecast with people whose fitness might not to be as high as mine. Not sure why they never caught on in these parts. It is a very sobering reminder of NZ conditions that people can perish from hypothermia in Nov at 1360m at high latitudes on a dry night (is the dryness part confirmed?). I would be very interested to learn the specifics of the clothing they were wearing, particularly regarding their hard shell protection. When I take people out I always insist on them bringing hardshell pants as well as jacket and have encountered quite a lot of resistance to that over the years.

I'm not a fan of hard shell at all. Bulky, heavy and pointless. I always tramp in stubbies. Long johns underneath if freezing and stormy above the bush line. For tops I just wear a merino tee then a merino long sleeve thermal if cold. My thin ridgeline fleece long sleeve over the top if colder still. Then my rain jacket over the top if it's at its worst. I'm a warm person, just my fingers get really cold so I take polypropylene gloves with waterproof warm gloves over those. Everyone is different. More important than what to wear is knowing what works for you in all conditions. This knowledge all comes with experience. One must dip ones toes when it comes to tramping. Which is where fitness can bite someone in the butt. A very fit person with limited all round tramping experience may become a little gung ho thinking their fitness will pull them through. Not always the case. Especially on the tops.