Gore-Tex: Quality -> Marketing ratio

Interesting mention of Paramo waterfproofs from Philip, yeah reasonably popular in the UK, and I had one. Very much a winter waterproof though in the UK, I've not worn mine in 8 years NZ though did use it regularly back in the UK. Also the Aussie link above has mention of a umbrella walking, obviously not very useful in the wind of course, and I've rarely seen anyone use one. The eccentric Nicholas Crane, UK explorer, broadcaster and author I recall used one on his mountain walk across Europe https://www.amazon.com/Clear-Waters-Rising-Mountain-Across/dp/0140243321

the states is a whole different ballgame for gear, a lot of places a windbreaker is enough to cope with their rain, the weather is far more stable, and they get away with lightweight gear more than you can here. i ran into an aussie tramping in summer, he didn't bring any rain gear at all because "it's summer" which to him means, its hardly going to rain if at all... yanks like their running shoes, a lot of tracks here would make short work of running shoes and some peoples ankles.. most of their trails don't involve bush bashing and a lot of the gear isn't made to cope with that. yet now a lot of the gear in our shops is designed for overseas locations and it isnt cheap and a lot of people blindly and willingly buy it...... i've read rave reviews about various rainshell fabrics, one was "highly water resistant" well maybe where it was tested, but in nz i was wet through in no time in any decent rain and the pocket linings acted like sponges for water....

I shouldn't be so negative about breathables. There is one place I use one - in the alpine environment, where it is often worn as a wind block when it is not raining. I think in that situation a breathable helps. From my understanding for moisture to move across a membrane there needs to be a differential in vapour pressure/level of moisture from one side to the other. When its cold and windy up high the sweaty inside of your coat is higher than the outside so moisture moves across but in the rain the inside and outside is pretty equal so the moisture doesn't really move across.

the reality is with rainwear they are often wetsuits. their main function is to completely block wind and cold rain getting into your clothing, but they often cant stop the buildup of sweat.. but by providing what is often a vapour barrier they seal out the worst of the cold. if its not cold then they seal in too much heat.

"I shouldn't be so negative about breathables. There is one place I use one - in the alpine environment, where it is often worn as a wind block when it is not raining." Yes I agree totally with your reasoning. The one scenario where they could have legitimately made a strong marketing claim, yet they didn't. Personally I think Gore dragged the market down a bluffed out spur; as evidenced by the huge dissatisfaction with their products seen all over the net. And the fact that 30 years later we are still having this conversation trying to find a way through. However I'm willing to budge a little; I've never really tried out the modern versions of Goretex, Neoshell or eVent in testing conditions. Maybe they have come some distance over time. Here's an interesting new linky: https://gearjunkie.com/columbia-outdry-extreme-waterproof-jackets One of the really big problems here is a lack of standardised assessment. Both individual metabolisms, and the weather, conditions of use, abuse, age and design of the garment make it almost impossible to reliably translate one user's experience onto your own. So what reads like a promising new development in the link above, could just as easily turn out perfectly useless flogging up the steep ridgeline from Neils Forks Hut to Maungahuka in a belting southerly. Natural evolution has solved this problem a million times over, and never with a ptfe/polyurethane membrane. The Paramo/Analogy Nikwax idea was one attempt at a bio-mimicry solution ... and I can't help but wonder if the next big thing will also come from an approach inspired by nature.

gore market their "windstopper" membrane for windproof garments, its more breathable than waterproof membranes. you can still overload a waterproof breathable membrane with sweat in dry weather, it has to be cold enough to allow you to stay cool inside the coat to avoid sweating so much that you dont overload the waterproof membrane. thats why you get specific windproof materials, they breathe better and are less likely to be overwhelmed with sweat.

I think this breathable rain gear is a step up from the non breathable PVC and the like, but virtually all the benefits accrue when it's not raining. It doesn't matter what breatheability and water repellent membrane you've got, in heavy continuous rain you're going to get end up with a continuous film of water on the outside. You're still generating moisture on the inside (sweat), there's no way it can get through that film of water on the outside of the membrane / fabric and so a film of water will build up on the inside, and your clothing will end up damp. Some observations: These waterproof / breathable membranes still make a difference to how wet and cold you get. Compare a cheap parka nylon parka from the warehouse with no coating at all in continuous rain, you'll be a lot colder and wetter in that that in one with a waterproof / breathable membrane. A waterproof breathable raincoat adds a lot of warmth when it's not raining, especially if it's cold and windy. A waterproof non breathable PVC or PVC coated nylon jacket isn't much use in those situations as you end up wet when you'd otherwise be dry. The best aspect of this waterproof breathable gear is you can leave it on when it stops raining, and with vents and zips open you can dry out quite nicely. Non breathable gear, you'll take it off and put it in your pack as soon as possible, your raincoat will remain wet and slimy the whole trip, and if it's windy you'll be cold after you take of the raincoat as your clothing is still damp. Fully waterproof, non breathable gear is quite good if you're standing around / not exerting yourself much. I carry a 50 g aluminised mylar poncho, it can go over me and a smallish pack, it's good for standing around in the rain and walking in the bush when no bushbashing is involved, with it over the pack there's enough air circulation to keep most of the moisture buildup at bay. It's also good in those on the tops blowing a gale situations when you have to crouch down between the tussocks / rocks and get some fuel in. Back to the wind and the poncho over everything and you've got a little space that isn't so wind chilled.

A mylar poncho? Does this mean you look like a slow-roast chook wrapped in foil? :P As in, a survival-blanket-type mylar poncho? I hope you don't hunt in that thing! SO noisy! :D Yeah ok, I have seen them of course, but I personally fail to see their value.... Blanket kinda works, because you're not far from comatose. As in, you don't move (other than maybe shiver). But a PONCHO of mylar?? Good luck walking through ANY bush and keeping it intact, I reckon. And here's the thing; if you're still capable of forward movement, a survival blanket isn't the correct or even back-up equipment. A mylar ANYTHING is really only truly effective when movement has just recently ceased. If somebody is already hypothermic, it's proven a mylar blanket/bag does diddly squat. Mylar only REFLECTS heat that is already present. Really good as a heat reflector if you can get a fire started. GREAT as a signalling (reflection of sunlight) device. If you have just stopped tramping and you know your gear isn't equipped for the pending low-temp conditions (why are you ill-prepared?), or if you're two bodies in a situation trying to warm one of them, then yes, mylar can be effective. But don't rely on it as a hypothermia cure-all. (Ex-Navy medic. I'm not talking out of my sun-don't-shine orifice here).

Andy Kirkpatrick has a cool take on this perenial topic: http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_truth_about_breathable_waterproofs "THE BOTTOM LINE - SO ARE ALL SHELLS CRAP? When I first got into the outdoors I was a serious Buffalo user and thought all shells were evil and the people who used them weak and pathetic. I was, in fact, one of those radical doubters as far out in my views as the global marketeers. Now I can see the advantages of shells and how, when built into the right system, they can prove vital in staying comfortable. The leaps in fabric technology have never been as great as we were led to believe but the leaps in design and engineering have. These days we can buy 100% waterproof shells that weigh very little, with seams that are welded and with face fabrics that are both tough and water resisting. Hoods are better, pockets are better and so are zips, cord pulls and every other component. As outdoor people we are spoilt for choice and although maybe they aren’t as breathable as an umbrella, they are a dammed sight more practical." I'm still a doubter, but I'm willing to be convinced. Incidentally the one jacket that's served us really well is a Montbell Neige that because it's bright yellow its seen a LOT of use over the past 10 years for our daily cycle commute. The really interesting thing is just how very well the DWR on it has held up. It's getting a little tatty around the cuffs now, but the rest still beads ordinary rain pretty well after all this time. Here's Montbell explaining their Polkatex technology: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/6627/ And this is the sort of versatile jacket that appeals to me as well: http://euro.montbell.com/products/disp.php?cat_id=2005&p_id=2306103&gen_cd=1 A bit like wayno, I find this topic endlessly fascinating ... :-)

@Kreig re Mylar Poncho: I don't go around looking like a slow roast chook as a matter of course, but it does get some use. Typical situation is when it's cold wet and windy, but you're moving fairly quickly, generating a reasonable amount of heat. Perhaps wearing a merino top plus 100 weight fleece hoody and beanie with rain shell over. Plenty warm enough while you're moving. Back up Climashield jacket and short sleeved 100 weight fleece in the pack so not ill prepared, but if you stop for food, i'll get cold quite quickly. Choice is get out the warm jacket, take off the rain shell, put on warm jacket, put on rain shell again, reverse process in 5 - 10 minutes and put now damp warm jacket away in the pack vs pull the 50 g mylar poncho out of the rainshell pocket, put it on over everything and sit down on it with knees inside while you eat before getting going again. Also good for going outside the hut in pouring rain. Agreed, absolutely no use when bushbashing, though I can imagine putting it on under the rain shell in really nasty wet, cold and windy situations when clothing is already wet, better to have a sauna inside than have insulation freezing from the outside in.