Alpine sleeping bags

Thanks everyone for your comments. It's the bag buyers dilemma of trying to get maximum warmth for the least weight but with compactness to boot. I'm a cold sleeper and having read up a bit more think I'm going to have to compromise on the bulk a bit and opt for an Exped 900 lite which will give me a comfortable night at -8 (EN Comfort) and in my small size weighs 1300g which isn't too bad for a bag that is that warm. I have a toasty sleeping mat so have that sorted. I'd rather not be on the edge of misery/hypothermia and even if it works out to be a bit warm there'll be an extra inbuilt safety factor should I end up in conditions that are colder than I anticipated. Sian S...the light weight quilt bags are an interesting concept but I'm not sure that they live up to their advertised temperature ratings (they are not EN tested) and they are not contoured to fit the sleepers shape. I think I'd find having to wear a separate hood annoying and potentially drafty too. Z-packs is another company that has developed a similar design. They are very lightweight bags though and could be a great option for people who don't feel the cold. Has anyone had any experience of using these in alpine conditions?

yup. sleeping bags are worth their weight in gold. its worth it to make sure you get a good nights sleep, the drawbacks of not having enough warmth and not getting a good nights sleep impact your experience greatly on trips. less enjoyable, more tired, more prone to making mistakes.... its all very well for people who are focused on saving weight to look at having to cart around less weight, but theres more peace of mind in having adequate weight gear when the conditions are cold... its really great when its really freezing cold and you can drop off to sleep for a comfortable night and be refreshed to tackle a difficult day the next day i have an ultra light bag, but only because i have warmer bags if the conditions dictate... i wouldnt trust a quilt in cold conditions, sleeping bags are far better at holding in the warmth than a quilt. still amazes me the amount of warmth you can get out of a light bundle of feathers and nylon that packs down to such a small size. almost enables you to take a good nights sleep for granted. the alternative isnt one to dwell on

Be warned that NZ brands like Macpac and Kathmandu seem to use the "EN rating" even though their bags are *not* tested by an independent lab, so the temperature rating they are showing might be completely off. This is also the case of many cottage manufacturers who don't want to pay to have their bags tested. Please also be aware that this norm states that the lower limit is for a man to sleep in a curled position and not have any frostbite, not that you would get a good night of sleep. All the temperatures of the norm are for someone wearing fleece clothes and a fleece beanie. Some manufacturers advertise the "extreme" temperature. You should ignore it. Honest manufacturers won't even show it in the product page as it might mislead people. This "extreme" rating means you would survive 6 hours but might lose your toes or fingers to frostbite. So that's definitely not a temperature you should use your sleeping bag at. From experience applying the comfort rating and lower rating to women and men doesn't relate to what people actually feel, skinny dudes will be colder than short sheilas in the same bag at the same temperature… and it depends on a lot of other factors: those temperature ratings don't account for wind, humidity, the absence of a sleeping mat, sleeping outside of a tent, etc. Those ratings are also for a man of 25 years, 1.73 m and 70 kg and a woman of 25 years, 1.62m and 60 kg. If you are older, skinnier, fatter, taller, or shorter those ratings might not correspond to your experience at all. And while performing those rating tests from one lab to the other (who are using different mannikins for the tests), people noticed variations of up to 5°C on the same sleeping bag… so yeah, if the rating is changing from one mannikin to the other, you can understand it can change from one human to the other ;) So unless you know you usually feel warm in other sleeping bags at the lower temperature rating it is best to aim for the comfort rating. I built a fairly large list of sleeping bags with the years to be able to compare brands and models that you can find here: http://haere.net/gear/sleeping-bags/ You can download the spreadsheet to add your own bags if they are not in the list. I personally wouldn't recommend something that is more than $200-$300 as I have heard of so many stories of people who have lost their bag (like drying on top of the tent, no wind, and then sudden wind... bag lost and never found) or it has been destroyed or stolen, or just has lost its insulation with time. I treat them as a consumable that will need to be replaced after a few years.

macpacs website say their bags have been independently tested for the EN rating. if you click on any of their sleeping bags and click the "design" tab, it states this. cold spots are a common issue with designing a sleeping bag well. getting a good distribution of the down without cold spots, the less fill there is in the bag the far harder it gets to achieve. how the compartments are designed makes a big difference, very lightweight bags dont tend to be able to get this right, they are sacrificing warm design for weight. to be sure of getting a good bag get one that at least reviews well. or from companies that specialise in making a smaller range of outdoor gear and arent into making all types of outdoor gear, their design focus is higher and often the quality of what they make is higher. exped specialise in fewer products than macpac and kathmandu. there are various other brands that specialise more in sleeping bags but they dont sell them in NZ. feathered friends, big agnes, western mountaineering, RAB i think feathered friends and western mountaineering you can get your bag custom made with the amount of down you want in it as well. marmot and montbell also have a good reps. i think macpac have changed designers a few times over the decades, photos i've seen of the current team have a pretty young team. as mentioned already, the insulation underneath you in winter matters almost as much as the bag, if you're camping you need a sleeping mat rated for the cold conditions they have R ratings for the conditions. since all the insulation in a bag thats under you is compressed to a few millimetres, all the insulation underneath will come from the mattress you're sleeping on. how much heat you loose will be highly dependant on that insulation in winter... again going for the lightest sleeping mat isnt a good idea when camping in winter.. down bags can last for tens of years if looked after well, kept as dry as possible when in use, dried thoroughly as soon as possible, and stored uncompressed. i disagree about spending less on a bag, you arent going to get a warm winter bag for $200-300. it will have lower loft down, less of it and won't bulk up or pack down as well and be heavier compared to more expensive bags, be sensible, i don't know of anyone personally who has lost a bag, just the odd anectdote i cant substantiate. sleeping mats yes i know of quite a few of those that have blown away

Thanks. All of these comments are useful. Wiki defines the EN ratings as follows: Upper Limit — the temperature at which a standard man can sleep without excessive perspiration. It is established with the hood and zippers open and with the arms outside of the bag. Comfort — the temperature at which a standard woman can expect to sleep comfortably in a relaxed position. Lower Limit — the temperature at which a standard man can sleep for eight hours in a curled position without waking. Extreme — the minimum temperature at which a standard woman can remain for six hours without risk of death from hypothermia (though frostbite is still possible). When I looked into this further, it assumes the wearer/manikin is wearing one layer of thermal underwear, socks and a hat. I have a good R rating on my sleeping mat and I also use a thermal lining which might bump the temperature up a degree or two but doesn't seem to make a massive difference to me. I'm not a great fan of the ultralight philosophy. In most situations it works out ok but if the weather gets extreme and turns to custard, which it's more likely to do up in the alpine environment, I'd rather have the heavier gear with a wider safety margin. Thanks Waynowski for the tips on those other brands, most of which I was not aware of. I see that Feathered Friends are using 900 feathers in most of their bags which means *very lofty* and pretty good quality.

Agree with Wayno re lifespan of bags. My current two are 5 and 15 years old (marmot & eurohike respectively) and both still good down to -3 or so before they really need zipping up. Between them they've had at least 200 days use a year in that time ... though 95% of that just as a quilt rather than getting compressed underneath me. The only bags I've ever had to throw out have been ruined when washing them. Not sure what others are doing that gives them shorter lifespans - 'losing loft' Leaving them compressed maybe? Sleeping directly on the ground & picking/soaking up dirt? Dunno, but keen to hear theories.

down bags need to be used with a sleeping bag liner to minimise body oils and dirt getting into the bag that will cause the down to clump....

Yes but even though, after a couple hundred nights it will lose some insulation. Some specialized companies do clean sleeping bags, a friend of mine just sent his to Germany after one year of everyday use: $100 to remove all the down, clean it separately, clean the fabric, replace 100 grams of down that got too bad, and sew that back together. It's said that you can wash/clean your sleeping bag yourself by following very precise instructions, but I heard so many horror stories of bags that got ruined that I just prefer keeping mine dirty for now :) I used it for around 400 nights in the last 2 years and you can see that (and smell it too). The liner helped I think, and it feels nicer when you use the bag as a quilt when it's too hot. But then your sleeping system is +100 grams and +$80 too. One of the best brands out there is Cumulus, a small Polish manufacturer: http://sleepingbags-cumulus.eu/ Their sleeping bags are incredibly light (my summer quilt is less than 500 grams and warm down to 5°C) and the quality is quite good for a fair price.

I seriously considered pyjamas but I know everyone would laugh at me. The problem is Im one of those that cant use a liner. I tried it at home Put it in the bag then climbed in stayed perfectly still and 2 minutes later I was tangled up so much the wife had to use scissors to get me out Ended up using a clean pair of long johns and a t shirt to keep the bag clean

I have a clean pair of longjohns, long sleeve poly prop shirt and socks I wear in the evenings. No matter how cold it is when I set up camp I have a full wash. I hate going to bed filthy, plus I hate ruining my expensive sleeping bags.